Create Your Meaning: A Guide to Courage and Connection with Kathleen A. Murphy

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But my job, I'm going to borrow the courage of the people who walked.

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And in that, I'm going to create and generate meaning.

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That the meaning isn't out there for me to find, but for me to create, because I'm a co-creator. That's why I paused.

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And it's like, okay, so my job is to create and generate meaning that elevates and dignifies,

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so that when the most horrific things happen, and we lean into each other, and we borrow each

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other's courage in the face of man's brutality.

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We appreciate you tuning in for another insightful episode of the Alter'd Life Podcast.

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In this episode, we have Kathleen Murphy joining us.

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Kathleen is a LPC and LMFT therapist.

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She has helped families connect on a deeper level for over 20 years.

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Tune in as we dive into finding purpose amidst humanity's brutality and tuning our hearts.

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Connect with us as we look to harness the power of real human connection only on the Alter'd Life Podcast.

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There's something that happens when two hearts, two souls, not underneath the influence of advice,

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but just connection like music, right? We're more like music.

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Like we're tuning each other's hearts.

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And sometimes we go out of tune and a person comes along.

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And in that resonance, something happens where we get tuned our hearts.

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Maybe they're a little sharp, maybe they're a little flat, but we tune back up into this connection

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that causes the music of...

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I don't know what the music of. The music of being. Yeah.

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And I think the music is more beautiful when done together.

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Episode seven starts now. Kathleen Murphy, here you are live in the flesh.

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Thank you for coming to the Alter'd Life Podcast.

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I've really been looking forward to this conversation because I saw you at the emergence conference,

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TJ Woodward's conference, and I was in awe. I was in awe.

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And you've been saying to me, you are in awe, but I must share with you, you beautiful soul,

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that I'm in awe of you.

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And you just jumped off the stage and into my heart, and I just felt really connected to you.

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I felt like a kindred spirit.

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So I just wanted to have time with you on this podcast to let the world know more about you

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and hear your story and your message and all of the good things that you have to share from

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obviously all of your learnings in life as we are in this journey of continuous growth and emergence really, right?

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Emerging into our true selves.

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So welcome and thanks for coming.

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Can you do me a favor and just tell the audience who you are and what you'd like them to know about you, please?

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Well, first I want to tell you thank you so much for having me here.

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I am so excited and I am in awe because I can't believe all the excellence that I'm looking at.

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It's everywhere in this office.

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And so I think the reflection of you and what you want to build and so I appreciate hearing your words.

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Or even that, that you appreciate my own being and thank you because I think that this is how

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we connect is sometimes I think that we are looking at what's wrong with people rather than

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helping people remember the truth of who they are and their brilliance.

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So when I heard you, I thought, thank you for reminding me that I have something to offer.

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And so that's my lead in when you get, when people ask me like, who are you?

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The first thing I actually want to say, but I often don't is I am life expressing itself perfectly like this. Yes.

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In this moment in time.

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And sometimes I think we get confused by our roles and who we are.

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And it's like, I play a lot of different roles, but I am just an expression of the creator and life itself.

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And the roles that I get to play, because I've jumped through some hoops to get licensure and

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things like that is, um, you know, I get to be a therapist.

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That's a role that I have that I love that I feel like is a gift that I get to be part of a

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tribe of people that what I call hold the stories of the culture, right?

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That we get to hear the real story.

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And, um, I value that gift.

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I did have to go to school and get an LMFT and a master's in counseling and all that, but that

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feels like the entry ticket into a profession, um, that seeks to what you said earlier is to

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reconnect humanity and like to, like to create connection and possibilities of healing.

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So that's a role that I get to play.

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I'm also a mom to a 41 year old and I'm a grandmother, you know, to a 14 year old and I'm a

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friend and, um, I'm a thank you so much for having me.

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I love talking about how do we heal? Yes. Right. Yes.

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And you said, how do we heal by connection? That's, that's the basic.

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And you even have a scale in your office measuring that. I'm like, holy shit. Holy wow.

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You're going to love you.

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You're going to love when I tell you about some of the other things we've been doing about connection.

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So, uh, and I see it in you, you just radiate, you just, uh, if there was a frequency of connection,

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you are in the optimal frequency. You just have that. It flows through you.

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And, uh, it's, it's, it's, it's something that, uh, you know, sort of just, it supersedes our

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ability to sort of understand.

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I think we can try to understand why is this thing of human connection so important?

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Why is it so powerful?

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Why is it so effective?

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How is it so transformative?

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You know, how did miracles happen as a result of it?

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Um, but I think we just have to honor it and sort of acknowledge it and endeavor to try to continue

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to like understand more, but we'll never, never fully comprehend it entirely. I don't think. Do you? No. Yeah.

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No, but you said a word that I love. It's like flow. Yeah.

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You said flows through you and flow, flow is where it's the absence of self, right?

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A lot of times people are finding themselves.

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And I think that that's important, but there's like psychology to me or what I get to practice.

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It's not, yes, it's a science, but science and art both seek a similar thing.

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And that is like looking at what's true, right? Yes.

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We're like the art of truth, the science of truth.

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And like, I even see it in your, in your office here.

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It's like you're measuring because you're wanting to know it's true. Yes.

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And then there's the art of truth that, that lives in that flow space.

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It's almost like you have to find yourself or understand yourself and then lose it.

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Like, like, like Eminem, lose yourself for a moment.

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Like you gotta, you gotta, and there's a, there's a, an emergence, another word you use right

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now that happens when two people gather together for a cause of healing, even if one person

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doesn't know that that's what they're doing, right?

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There's something, there's something that happens when two hearts, two souls, not underneath

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the influence of advice, but just connection like music, right?

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You like, we're more like music. Yes.

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Like we're tuning each other's hearts.

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And sometimes we go out of tune and a person comes along and in that resonance, something happens

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where we get tuned our hearts.

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Maybe they're a little sharp, maybe they're a little flat, but we tune back up into this connection

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that causes the music of, I don't know what the music of, the music of being. Yeah.

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I think, and I think the music is more beautiful when done together than when done, I mean, there's times, right?

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Where that solo is really powerful, like to follow with the metaphor of music, like we're in

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our own space of being that is beautiful, but it is so powerful.

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Like when you combine it with the, you know, with that frequency or that instrument of another life, right? Coming together.

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And sometimes those just are just, you know, they're just so spot on that it facilitates that,

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that healing or that growth or that, you know, that just that moment that you needed was somebody

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that you didn't- Like a transformative moment. Yeah. A transformative moment.

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You didn't even need it.

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Sometimes you don't even know you need it.

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And then you, you meet somebody, you hear something, they say something and you're like, wow. And something happens. Something happens. What was that? Yeah. I know.

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I think a friend of mine was just telling me she was at a retreat and she didn't know why she

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thought she was going for one reason.

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And then they were doing these mala beads and she was like, whatever, I'm just going to do the practice.

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And then as she's chanting or praying, if you will, on these 108 beads with other people, suddenly

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she comes into a moment of awareness and transformation.

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And that's not always skipping through the fields, is it? No.

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I mean, like she said, I came to a moment of awareness.

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I wasn't lost in it.

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I was just able to be with it, to see that I had been causing harm through the way I controlled

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not only me, but everybody else.

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Cause I was so afraid I was going around controlling what people are doing, saying.

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And she said, and you were one of the faces that came up.

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And I want to say, I'm so sorry.

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And we had been in a bit of dissonance.

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And as soon as she owned and she told me about not in this kind of morbid, through my fault,

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through my fault, kind of a way, but through actual connection to realizing, oh, because I hadn't

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trusted, you know, in a big way, like sometimes people say, like one of the places where I work at onsite workshops, right.

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They say trust the process, but they're not talking about the at onsite, that life is a process.

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And there's a, and, and we had been in dissonance.

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And as soon as she said that, I felt that this friendship had came back into tune.

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And I felt this, this is just before I came here, utter joy.

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And I called her up later on the way down here.

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And I said, God, thank you so much.

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She said, I was sobbing in this awareness. Wow.

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Like sobbing at a moment of awareness that I had a way of being that's contracting other people

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when they're around me and myself too.

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And sometimes it's hard to be, you know, and I didn't say, no, you didn't, you weren't.

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Cause you know, she was kind of controlling, to be honest. Keep it real.

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And, and, and she, she said, I had no idea that I was going there for that, but being with these

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people allowed this healing that I didn't even know was needed.

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And it's already, I'm getting results in my life because of this transformative moment.

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Don't you, when those moments happen, they sort of come to you as a gift in my experience, but

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then I also get this other dimension when those moments where there's this gift of them receiving the gift.

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It's like, it's like, it's like, it's a, it's so rich.

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It's so, there's so many layers to it. It's, it's, it's funny.

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Cause in the conversation we were having, we were walking around, there's like the, you know,

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like there was a pink elephant in the room sort of, and we're talking about, oh, this and that

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and politics and, you know, all the things.

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And then I was like, I want to talk about this disagreement that we had.

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And I could hear the, it's a bear, but you have to be listening like a, the shakiness in her voice, the tentativeness.

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And, and we began this conversation of connection that I, that we could have lost each other.

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Cause sometimes moments of, of disruption change the course of relationship, right?

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Where we lose friends or we're not just quite, and maybe we're still talking, but something is out of pocket.

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And in her bravery and my own bravery too, I want to own that to say, can, I don't know how to have this conversation.

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I want to, I have a, I have a big difference about the way that we operate and I'm not sure

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how to talk about it.

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And this conversation emerged and I got my friend back. Wonderful.

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That is such a gift. Right?

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Like you feel that and suddenly there's this wideness, there's an opening, there's a possibility

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that, and she said, you know, I have my friend back. And it's so wonderful.

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And it's going outside of our comfort zone, being willing to be vulnerable, being willing to

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like put ourselves out there to, you know, that, cause those things don't always come out the

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way that we would hope, but the willingness to do those things. To try. To try.

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To put yourself in the field. Yeah, right. Exactly.

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Risking being embarrassed or whatever that risking for, for better connection and relationship,

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which I don't even know how to describe just today, even sitting here, how happy I feel that

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I, I told her, I didn't even know that that disconnection was kind of flavoring or tinting the world.

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And I didn't even know it until, until there, that, that contraction turned into an expansion. Right.

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And so what, how perfect that I get to talk with you today.

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Now we're talking about this. About it, right? It's amazing.

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And there's nothing, nothing happens by chance either, does it? Isn't it amazing?

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Like all things, like everything is sort of, can be sort of channeled for, you know, a purpose.

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And I, as I'm sitting here, you know, just experiencing you and, you know, spending this, sharing

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this space with you, it's really cool because you are, you know, this, this way of being is,

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it's very, um, very obvious. It's very apparent, right. To me.

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And I think I, you know, some of us are a little, have a little bit more discernment. Right.

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And so I think, um, that's part of my understanding of like how I'm wired.

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And so I, I have a special appreciation for that.

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And, and, but humanity in general has an appreciation for that.

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So thank you for, you know, being who you are.

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And there's so much that you're talking about that, you know, my brain is firing, but where

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do I want to delve?

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I think, you know, one of the areas you talked about is, um, you know, sort of losing, um, our way.

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And, you know, we, we lose, they talk about being in tune.

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We, we fall out of tune. Right.

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And, uh, you talked about life being like this, this process of discovery.

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Um, I have like come to an awareness that I think that one of the main, uh, objectives, one

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of the main missions of our life as a person and our personhood is to find our purpose.

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Like, you know, that is like, we're put on this, we're put on this earth with that, you know,

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that sort of innate desire.

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Wait, can I ask you a question right there? Yeah.

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See, when you said that we're put on the earth to find a purpose,

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when you say that, do you mean that you think that the purpose is out there somewhere to be

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found or that we're undiscovered or we're creating our purpose? Uh, I'm not sure.

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And I don't know, maybe there's, I think there's like multiple pathways to that, finding that purpose.

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Well, right there, right there.

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Are we, can we, like, there's some way that I just stand when I hear, it's almost like I go,

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wait, we have to pause right here and, and let go.

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I, so I heard you say that in your story that you had homelessness in your past. Yes, I did. Okay. And me too. Yeah.

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And I remember this moment in my own, I was living on the street.

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I, by the grace of God, I had, I really wanted to be a sober person.

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I think the word sober means clear.

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And, um, you know, I was living on the street.

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I saw this newspaper article and it had this, um, it talked about this place in Austin, Texas for women and children.

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Cause I had a little girl, I was 25 years old.

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And it talked about this place called Austin Family House.

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And, um, long story short by the grace and generosity and charity of some folks, I got to go there.

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And one of the reasons I'm sitting here today is because of the time that I got to spend there.

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Um, and I had no resources to pay for that, but I remember this specific day.

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It seemed like everybody else was staying at the house.

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They were getting a job.

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They had the car and I'm standing there on the corner of ninth and Congress.

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And this is before cell phones.

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And it was, I had this feeling of everybody is getting something except for me. Where's mine? That kind of thing.

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And suddenly I had a vision in my head from a book that I had read, um, Man's Search for Meaning.

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Have you ever read that? It's on my bookshelf. It's on your bookshelf. Like Viktor Frankl.

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And these people, these Jewish people were walking with their frostbitten feet and they were

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going to concentration camps to be, to lose everything, their children, the gold that are their

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teeth, their glasses that we are so easily wearing right now.

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Everything was being stripped from them.

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And I thought to myself, this didn't, you know, when people go, everything happens for a reason,

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that didn't happen for a reason.

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That's like, is there a reason that babies are abused?

00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:49,640
Is there a reason that 6 million Jews are burned?

00:20:49,740 --> 00:20:53,640
Is there a reason like when we go, everything happens for a reason.

00:20:53,840 --> 00:21:05,320
And I thought there's no reason, but if they could walk through that and still some of them

00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:13,560
would go into those places and serve people like Viktor Frankl, they would serve others, even

00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:15,660
amongst the most horrific loss.

00:21:15,660 --> 00:21:23,740
And I thought that didn't happen for a reason, but my job, I'm going to borrow the courage of the people who walked.

00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:28,280
And in that, I'm going to create and generate meaning.

00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:38,140
That the meaning isn't out there for me to find, but for me to create, because I'm a co-creator. That's why I paused.

00:21:38,260 --> 00:21:44,340
And it's like, okay, so my job is to create and generate meaning that elevates and dignifies

00:21:44,340 --> 00:21:49,960
so that when the most horrific things happen and we lean into each other, when we borrow each

00:21:49,960 --> 00:22:00,040
other's courage in the face of man's brutality, and we say, not that God willed this or whatever,

00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:09,000
but that this is happening because human beings, although immensely wondrous are immensely brutal. Yes.

00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:15,920
And so that's why I think that when you were saying find purpose, cause this is, it's not that

00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:21,440
I, I'm not convinced, but I'm like going, this is something I'm thinking about.

00:22:21,700 --> 00:22:27,640
Am I finding, am I to discover or am I to create purpose?

00:22:28,140 --> 00:22:29,500
And I think it matters.

00:22:29,500 --> 00:22:34,740
Cause I love when I just met you right out there, you said from pathology to purpose.

00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:39,520
And I'm like, that's a logo from pathology to purpose.

00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:46,240
But sometimes I think people are looking for and expecting, and maybe that's true.

00:22:47,900 --> 00:22:53,220
So I don't want to come across like, no, Michael, I want to be at Lake.

00:22:53,420 --> 00:22:57,940
I love, I love this conversation cause it's a deeper way of thinking about it.

00:22:57,940 --> 00:22:59,820
It's a, it's an openness.

00:23:00,380 --> 00:23:07,110
It's a, and I think that's what we need more of too, is being open to, uh, you know, um, a mindset

00:23:07,110 --> 00:23:12,690
that is sort of beyond our own bias or our own comprehension.

00:23:13,370 --> 00:23:16,730
Because every time I think I comprehend something, my mind is blown.

00:23:18,350 --> 00:23:20,190
And be willing to go there.

00:23:20,350 --> 00:23:25,750
Like I was thinking when you were talking, I go, oh, I'm going to, you know, we're doing a podcast.

00:23:25,870 --> 00:23:27,290
Am I supposed to be polite?

00:23:27,770 --> 00:23:31,430
Like, or do we get to interrupt the conversation and go, what do you mean?

00:23:32,030 --> 00:23:33,270
What do you mean by that?

00:23:33,270 --> 00:23:37,310
Like, are we, I mean, this is a big question.

00:23:37,570 --> 00:23:45,030
I think, I think for me, what I mean by that, share the meaning behind that is not the process,

00:23:45,030 --> 00:23:48,810
but the, that when you get to that place.

00:23:49,070 --> 00:23:50,290
You mean the place of purpose?

00:23:50,990 --> 00:23:57,830
When you get to that place of purpose, just buckle up and watch what happens.

00:23:57,830 --> 00:24:05,170
Cause you know, like my journey to my purpose, you know, it was, I, I don't even know, like,

00:24:05,170 --> 00:24:08,610
wow, how do I get to do this every day?

00:24:08,670 --> 00:24:12,530
How do I get to have conversations with people like you every day?

00:24:13,050 --> 00:24:15,270
You know, how did I find this thing?

00:24:15,390 --> 00:24:22,550
And once you find it, uh, it's just, did you find it or did you create it?

00:24:22,550 --> 00:24:24,970
You know, I think, I think it was both.

00:24:25,010 --> 00:24:25,950
I think it was both.

00:24:25,950 --> 00:24:27,770
I think it was multi-dimensional.

00:24:27,770 --> 00:24:29,590
Like how did this emerge? Yeah.

00:24:29,590 --> 00:24:36,150
I think it was just like, uh, leaning into how can I be of service?

00:24:36,450 --> 00:24:39,770
How can I, uh, make an impact?

00:24:39,890 --> 00:24:46,090
How can I, you know, show up in a way if I see a need that there's a way to meet the need and

00:24:46,090 --> 00:24:49,990
how can, and I don't have the answer. No, no, no. You know what?

00:24:50,250 --> 00:24:57,110
But here's, what's more powerful when I'm listening to you, you ask questions all the time.

00:24:57,210 --> 00:25:03,010
You're like, because some of the questions that you're asking, like, I think the question is

00:25:03,010 --> 00:25:07,530
almost more important than the answer because it frames what's possible, right?

00:25:07,530 --> 00:25:09,970
When you're going, how can I serve people?

00:25:10,170 --> 00:25:13,450
How can I, like, what are the other things that you just said?

00:25:13,490 --> 00:25:15,170
Cause I had the CRS. Yeah.

00:25:15,170 --> 00:25:18,290
Well, some of the things I say is like, how can I see a need and meet a need?

00:25:18,550 --> 00:25:21,830
How can I see a need and meet a need? That's right. Yeah.

00:25:21,830 --> 00:25:28,770
How can I help people heal? That's right. Whatever. Can't remember. Okay. So, okay.

00:25:28,770 --> 00:25:31,410
So here's why I think that's important. Yeah.

00:25:31,730 --> 00:25:36,510
So if you ask the question, why did this happen to me?

00:25:37,350 --> 00:25:42,910
That's a different, that frames the trajectory of where you're going to go. Yeah.

00:25:42,910 --> 00:25:48,750
But if you ask the question, how can I be now that this has happened to me? That's right.

00:25:48,810 --> 00:25:52,990
Like it's a whole different lifestyle opens up. That's right.

00:25:53,690 --> 00:26:01,410
Or the possibility opens up just by base, by the question or like the poet Rilke said,

00:26:05,150 --> 00:26:12,770
live the question because you couldn't even live the answer if you knew it. That's right. Right. That's right.

00:26:12,990 --> 00:26:21,330
And one of my great, one of the great teachers out there, Vicky Tanisaro, he wrote a book called The Karma of Questions.

00:26:21,730 --> 00:26:34,210
And I just started thinking like, oh, those questions, they're like prayers. That's right. Right? No, they absolutely are. They actually are.

00:26:35,010 --> 00:26:42,870
I see those questions as a portal to opening a door to possibilities.

00:26:43,810 --> 00:26:46,130
Wait, you have such great one-liners.

00:26:47,410 --> 00:26:49,910
A portal to open the door to possibilities.

00:26:50,810 --> 00:26:51,970
You're like a poet, right?

00:26:52,170 --> 00:26:56,610
That's what those are for me. They are. They are. They really are.

00:26:56,870 --> 00:27:02,130
That's what, if I didn't ask those questions and, you know, like, I think there's another thing

00:27:02,130 --> 00:27:04,750
here that I've, you know, I'm getting from our conversation.

00:27:05,110 --> 00:27:08,990
I'd ask you, you know, would you rather be a knower or a seeker?

00:27:13,390 --> 00:27:19,690
You know, that's like one of those, you would rather be right or happy, and I'm going to admit both. Both, right?

00:27:19,770 --> 00:27:23,130
And sometimes, but I like a knower or a seeker.

00:27:23,330 --> 00:27:25,370
Okay, let's let me, can I think about that?

00:27:25,470 --> 00:27:26,490
Yeah, you can think about it.

00:27:26,530 --> 00:27:27,510
But I'm going to think about it.

00:27:27,790 --> 00:27:29,610
Can I think about it out loud? Sure.

00:27:29,650 --> 00:27:34,430
Yeah, think about it out loud. Let's see. It's your process. Okay. Yeah, this is good. Okay.

00:27:35,370 --> 00:27:41,510
So when you ask the question, first of all, it's like, I think, okay, obviously seeker, right? Yeah.

00:27:41,510 --> 00:27:51,550
But then sometimes when you're always in the seeking, you miss something that is generated from a knower.

00:27:51,630 --> 00:27:59,290
Like when you say knower, I'm thinking of, you know the word ignorance? Yes. Okay.

00:27:59,310 --> 00:28:02,450
So ig, I, is without knowledge.

00:28:03,270 --> 00:28:06,110
So know comes from the root word gnosis.

00:28:06,710 --> 00:28:12,530
So there's a knowing that is very deep and spiritual. Yes. Right?

00:28:12,530 --> 00:28:20,910
So in some ways, I would rather rest in this deep knowing.

00:28:21,330 --> 00:28:30,570
And sometimes seeking becomes a way of never taking responsibility. I would agree. Like, right? I would agree.

00:28:30,830 --> 00:28:39,470
So it's a great question because there's a... It's a better answer. You like that. You like that answer.

00:28:39,530 --> 00:28:42,150
But sincerely, it is a much better answer.

00:28:42,150 --> 00:28:50,270
Because you could have taken that and just done the layup, you know, lazy response. Yeah. Seeker, of course.

00:28:50,270 --> 00:28:54,310
And you took it and you took us into a really real place.

00:28:54,490 --> 00:28:56,490
And that's what I admire about you.

00:28:56,490 --> 00:28:57,790
It is really so cool.

00:28:57,930 --> 00:28:59,570
It is such a gift. Yeah.

00:28:59,570 --> 00:29:02,370
I like that I can have these. Yeah. It's my favorite thing.

00:29:02,450 --> 00:29:08,710
Like, I was telling one of the fellows here that when I first went to school, you know, you

00:29:08,710 --> 00:29:12,750
go to school and the teachers, like, what is your hobbies? Those are icebreakers.

00:29:13,130 --> 00:29:18,690
And, you know, everybody was saying surfing, you know, mountain climbing.

00:29:19,110 --> 00:29:20,530
And they got to me and I'm like, talking.

00:29:21,370 --> 00:29:26,730
They're like, can talking be a hobby? I'm like, yeah. Like this.

00:29:26,750 --> 00:29:30,090
Because I'm like going, okay, let's think about things.

00:29:30,410 --> 00:29:34,410
Like, wouldn't it be great instead of meeting people and saying, oh, what do you do?

00:29:34,890 --> 00:29:40,790
You just say, well, hey, what's been fascinating you lately? That's cool. Right?

00:29:40,790 --> 00:29:44,710
Like, what are you most intrigued by? That's so cool.

00:29:45,030 --> 00:29:47,910
And like, I like the question that you asked.

00:29:47,910 --> 00:29:54,850
Because seeking and knowing, it's so funny.

00:29:56,850 --> 00:30:03,850
It's like, if you seek and never know, but if you know and never seek how, like, it's such a thing.

00:30:03,930 --> 00:30:06,450
I think they're both equally important, aren't they? Yeah.

00:30:06,650 --> 00:30:10,150
I think that we don't think about the word knowing from its root, though.

00:30:10,190 --> 00:30:15,370
And you said like, it's like a Gnostic, right? Gnosis. Gnosis. To know. Right?

00:30:15,370 --> 00:30:18,030
Like in a spiritual knowing. Yeah. Yeah.

00:30:18,450 --> 00:30:27,730
Like, sometimes in mental health, really what gets lost is people forget that they have a knower inside, a knower.

00:30:28,190 --> 00:30:32,250
I'll call that healing intelligence. Right? That's wonderful.

00:30:32,930 --> 00:30:44,670
And even as a mom, I'm like, man, one of my great jobs as a mom, you know, I like to give advice

00:30:44,670 --> 00:30:51,210
because we know, but not in the Gnosis way, in the superficial way. That's right.

00:30:51,210 --> 00:30:54,970
Maybe in the egoic way. Yes.

00:30:54,970 --> 00:30:58,750
Do as I say, listen to me, all that stuff. And she gets older.

00:30:59,430 --> 00:31:05,790
And one day I see her with my grandchild, and I had learned to not give advice.

00:31:06,190 --> 00:31:09,430
I had gotten that far. Don't give advice.

00:31:10,370 --> 00:31:13,990
And then a teacher of mine told me, even when it's asked for.

00:31:15,130 --> 00:31:19,690
And I was like, are you kidding me? How difficult is that? How difficult is that?

00:31:20,110 --> 00:31:27,270
Because I'm thinking, at last. Yeah, that's the ticket. That's permission, yeah.

00:31:27,390 --> 00:31:36,430
And so one day I'm sitting with Rose, and I think that I can raise that child better than her daughter, my grandchild, better.

00:31:36,430 --> 00:31:39,410
But I had learned to zip it and not say a word.

00:31:39,910 --> 00:31:48,110
And she said, I can feel the inside of your judgment.

00:31:50,630 --> 00:31:58,130
And I, you know, like what you could do is you could say, I didn't say anything. That's right. But she was right. I was.

00:31:58,230 --> 00:32:03,670
And then I had a transformational, like sometimes in Christianity, they have these phrases.

00:32:03,670 --> 00:32:06,710
And I love wisdom from everywhere.

00:32:07,530 --> 00:32:09,530
And an angel of the Lord appeared.

00:32:10,750 --> 00:32:16,910
And, you know, not like in big flapping wings, but in the form of a transformative thought.

00:32:19,110 --> 00:32:27,990
What makes you think you have all the information that this person needs so that she's doing

00:32:27,990 --> 00:32:29,330
what she's doing right now?

00:32:30,150 --> 00:32:32,710
You don't have enough information.

00:32:33,590 --> 00:32:38,290
You don't know the ins and outs of her secret hopes and fears. That's right.

00:32:38,310 --> 00:32:44,270
You don't know all the things that has happened that led her to make this choice right here and right now.

00:32:45,510 --> 00:32:51,430
And so from that moment, again, because we're talking about those transformational moments,

00:32:51,430 --> 00:32:53,870
I'm like, I'm a spectator in her life.

00:32:54,270 --> 00:32:56,110
To take a step back.

00:32:56,850 --> 00:33:10,310
And then from there, when I got the directive, no advice even when it's asked for, what I got

00:33:10,310 --> 00:33:12,250
to learn is how to ask questions.

00:33:12,350 --> 00:33:17,930
So if she says, Mama, what do you think about if I should go to this school or that school or

00:33:17,930 --> 00:33:23,990
whatever, a question I could ask is, what have you been thinking of already?

00:33:25,150 --> 00:33:32,630
Because I'm asking, I'm directing her, because I'm not being one of those, I can't tell you what to do moments. Right.

00:33:32,830 --> 00:33:37,930
But I'm directing her to look inside for that still, small voice that talks in her. That's right.

00:33:38,250 --> 00:33:44,370
That my job is not to provide answers, but to help her know that she has them.

00:33:45,770 --> 00:33:52,130
And sometimes trying to be helpful, we create noise in another person so they can't hear.

00:33:53,750 --> 00:33:57,770
That intelligence that exists innately in all beings.

00:33:58,270 --> 00:34:00,010
I so agree with that. Yeah.

00:34:00,110 --> 00:34:01,830
Thank you for agreeing with that. I do.

00:34:01,870 --> 00:34:08,570
And it's a small, very small voice, tiny, teeny, weeny voice. It's almost silent.

00:34:08,950 --> 00:34:19,250
You know, one of the things that I'm curious about in this modern age, sitting here across such

00:34:19,250 --> 00:34:22,910
a wonderful soul is- Spot it, you got it. Yeah.

00:34:24,730 --> 00:34:29,650
Is your thoughts on virtues?

00:34:31,710 --> 00:34:34,190
Yeah, what does it mean to be virtuous anymore?

00:34:34,590 --> 00:34:46,290
So there's that small voice, and then there's this gnosis that we have inside, and then there's these virtues, right?

00:34:46,290 --> 00:34:50,730
Which is also another form of knowing, but I think we don't- Huge form.

00:34:50,730 --> 00:34:58,850
Yeah, but we don't, what happened? What's going on, Kat? What's the deal? Like, what's happening?

00:34:59,950 --> 00:35:06,510
Okay, when, let's, okay, damn, you got to ask the big questions, don't you? Yeah.

00:35:07,150 --> 00:35:08,710
I mean, what's going on?

00:35:09,170 --> 00:35:11,630
Okay, so let's pause at this.

00:35:11,990 --> 00:35:16,470
When you say the virtues, what do you mean?

00:35:16,470 --> 00:35:22,210
Just so I make sure that I don't just think about what I think you mean, I want to know what-

00:35:22,210 --> 00:35:31,730
I think it is the purest form of truth, those things that are truly good.

00:35:32,330 --> 00:35:35,290
Like what are some of the virtues that you value?

00:35:36,310 --> 00:35:46,830
Love would be a virtue, yeah. What else? Honesty. Truth, yeah. Would be a virtue.

00:35:49,530 --> 00:35:51,310
Okay, we're on the same page. Yeah.

00:35:51,310 --> 00:35:54,910
I just needed to check to see where we- We're tracking, we're tracking.

00:35:54,910 --> 00:36:03,270
Well, we are, but I'm always knowing that I'm at risk for thinking I know what you mean. I appreciate that.

00:36:03,310 --> 00:36:08,610
And that sometimes I'm just operating off of my own definition rather than making sure- Thank

00:36:08,610 --> 00:36:10,270
you for showing that to me too, by the way.

00:36:10,890 --> 00:36:14,350
Like, I mean that, that's awesome. Thank you, yeah.

00:36:16,170 --> 00:36:19,530
I think that people can't be happy without them.

00:36:21,110 --> 00:36:26,370
That, you know, because when I hear a virtue, I hear ethic.

00:36:26,990 --> 00:36:32,510
And it's like in every wisdom tradition, I think that these traditions have come to point out

00:36:32,510 --> 00:36:37,350
the way of living a great life, right? Yes.

00:36:37,350 --> 00:36:43,430
And I've seen this in the work that I've got.

00:36:43,490 --> 00:36:50,810
I've done a lot of group work, and I've seen people, they come into maybe the workshop and they

00:36:50,810 --> 00:36:57,630
have, you know, maybe a wife and children, and then they'll be having a person on the side,

00:36:58,230 --> 00:37:01,270
and they don't feel okay.

00:37:03,750 --> 00:37:09,650
And they're trying to figure out how they can make this okay, but they're- And I'm not telling

00:37:09,650 --> 00:37:17,550
people what they need to value, but I would sometimes, to the chagrin of some people, ask, I'm

00:37:17,550 --> 00:37:20,290
sorry, do you value betraying your loved ones?

00:37:21,110 --> 00:37:22,510
Is that a value for you?

00:37:22,510 --> 00:37:29,850
Because if it is, okay, thank you for sharing so that I could work with you the way you But

00:37:29,850 --> 00:37:42,490
if you do not value lying and betraying people, there is no way that you can be happy in this situation. It just can't exist.

00:37:42,670 --> 00:37:44,890
It's an impossibility, isn't it? Yeah, because you're- Yeah.

00:37:44,890 --> 00:37:46,050
And then here's what we do.

00:37:46,050 --> 00:37:52,610
We go and we say we have generalized anxiety disorder because we're living against the values,

00:37:52,610 --> 00:37:55,310
and then we're generating this sense of guilt.

00:37:55,350 --> 00:37:57,790
And people are like, oh, well, you shouldn't feel guilty.

00:37:57,790 --> 00:38:04,330
No guilt is nature's way of telling you something is wrong. That's the other voice. Right? Yes.

00:38:04,550 --> 00:38:12,630
And so when we're betraying that and going against the values, and sometimes we're not even maybe questioning them.

00:38:12,970 --> 00:38:18,650
Maybe you grew up with this set of values, and they're the operating system of your life, but

00:38:18,650 --> 00:38:20,430
maybe they don't hold true for you today.

00:38:21,090 --> 00:38:28,350
But you can't go against them without first coming to terms with them and maybe making a decision

00:38:28,350 --> 00:38:34,990
like, you know, I've done a lot of work with the- Wait, let me stop you. Okay, thank you.

00:38:34,990 --> 00:38:36,890
You said something important there. All right.

00:38:37,030 --> 00:38:42,530
Is you can't make, you can't do something without coming to terms with them. Yes.

00:38:43,090 --> 00:38:47,470
So that's something that's important to go a little deeper with. Super.

00:38:47,470 --> 00:38:48,930
So what do you do?

00:38:49,330 --> 00:38:53,210
Like, how do you come to terms? Well, sometimes it's difficult.

00:38:54,570 --> 00:38:55,510
I'll just give you an example.

00:38:55,630 --> 00:39:02,330
I have the privilege of working at Breathe in LA.

00:39:03,870 --> 00:39:12,670
And these men that I've gotten to work with have taught me more about this than anything, than anyone else.

00:39:12,670 --> 00:39:18,670
And I've studied, you know, with all the modern greats.

00:39:20,410 --> 00:39:29,870
A lot of men who are living that came to Breathe or, you know, they grew up in maybe very fundamental

00:39:30,410 --> 00:39:37,870
or strongly Christian homes, but they knew when they were three or four or five that they were gay. Right?

00:39:37,870 --> 00:39:46,790
And so the value was in order to have value, to begin with, the value was you have to be straight.

00:39:47,690 --> 00:39:48,830
You have to be white.

00:39:49,950 --> 00:39:51,570
You have to be Christian.

00:39:52,130 --> 00:39:55,210
And if you go against that, you're going to hell.

00:39:56,990 --> 00:40:05,110
And so that those values become internalized so that you so deep that you it's like the fish

00:40:05,110 --> 00:40:08,230
that water, that, hey fish, how's the water?

00:40:08,370 --> 00:40:09,470
And the fish is like, what water?

00:40:09,610 --> 00:40:10,990
Because it's everywhere and nowhere.

00:40:13,370 --> 00:40:15,310
But you don't even know.

00:40:17,830 --> 00:40:25,590
And there's something inside that it calls these guys that I have worked with that is stronger

00:40:25,590 --> 00:40:28,230
than the values that were laid down for them.

00:40:29,350 --> 00:40:34,630
The desire for love and connection and nowhere to put that because it feels like they have to

00:40:34,630 --> 00:40:37,750
go against their values, but the values aren't theirs.

00:40:38,350 --> 00:40:43,990
They belong into the system that doesn't value them.

00:40:44,730 --> 00:40:49,210
And so sometimes we were working with people to go, what are your values?

00:40:49,570 --> 00:40:57,570
And first you have to know what are the values that you were taught that is creating this shame, this guilt, this fear.

00:40:57,570 --> 00:41:04,410
You know, we have a whole book of insanity called the DSM-5. Right.

00:41:04,590 --> 00:41:10,910
And so I think that you're asking such a profound question of, and sometimes people are having

00:41:10,910 --> 00:41:18,250
to come to terms with the things that were values to my family, the society.

00:41:19,130 --> 00:41:24,430
I'm not preparing people to align values with that.

00:41:24,430 --> 00:41:30,110
I'm preparing them to withstand living in a culture that says that they don't have a right to exist.

00:41:30,110 --> 00:41:32,890
You know, it's so really fascinating right now.

00:41:33,090 --> 00:41:43,190
You're answering this question in a way that is actually, for me, affirming how I see values as well.

00:41:43,330 --> 00:41:55,730
And that is like they supersede, they're beyond even what a virtue or a standard that someone would subject us to.

00:41:57,270 --> 00:42:04,050
And so it's like they, you know, virtues are truths, right? And you're right.

00:42:04,610 --> 00:42:06,770
Like truth, what is truth?

00:42:07,510 --> 00:42:10,510
Truth to someone else because of values.

00:42:10,590 --> 00:42:18,690
I think values are important, but I think virtues are above values. Right.

00:42:18,830 --> 00:42:23,470
They're like mean in a platonic kind of a way that they existed already.

00:42:23,570 --> 00:42:24,870
They're out there in the stars.

00:42:25,170 --> 00:42:27,350
They're out there in the galaxy.

00:42:27,770 --> 00:42:34,050
You know, one thing I loved about you is you played a song, shine bright like a diamond. That's right.

00:42:34,050 --> 00:42:39,670
And I think that is like a virtue. A virtue shines bright.

00:42:39,790 --> 00:42:43,090
It's not meant to be condemning.

00:42:43,170 --> 00:42:44,570
It's not meant to be limiting.

00:42:44,930 --> 00:42:46,270
It's meant to be freeing.

00:42:46,270 --> 00:42:48,150
It's meant to be empowering.

00:42:48,550 --> 00:42:49,810
It's meant to be connecting.

00:42:50,130 --> 00:42:51,350
It's meant to be connecting.

00:42:51,710 --> 00:42:56,810
And so, but we in our own limited understanding as humans and wanting to put things in a box,

00:42:56,830 --> 00:42:58,210
we want to put them into a box.

00:42:58,250 --> 00:43:04,910
So we've started to become, you know, rules-based and laws-based and values-based.

00:43:05,130 --> 00:43:07,390
Those whole things are all important.

00:43:07,490 --> 00:43:15,410
But I'm talking about universal truth, like love, like love is without limit, right? Love is without...

00:43:15,410 --> 00:43:21,010
Yeah, there's an absolute reality. Yes. That transcends time.

00:43:21,290 --> 00:43:25,110
That's what I'm talking about. That's right. That's right. Right.

00:43:25,430 --> 00:43:33,130
And when you live against those values, it causes suffering. Values can be divisive. Virtues are unifying.

00:43:33,850 --> 00:43:36,310
When you go against the virtues...

00:43:36,990 --> 00:43:38,210
You see what I'm saying?

00:43:38,210 --> 00:43:41,210
Yeah, like once a Buddhist... Like when you...

00:43:41,850 --> 00:43:47,210
I studied a lot of Buddhism. Mm-hmm. And in Theravada...

00:43:47,210 --> 00:43:54,510
I learned this in Theravada Buddhism, that there are these virtues. Yes.

00:43:54,870 --> 00:44:00,730
And that what is a cause of healing cannot be a cause of suffering.

00:44:00,890 --> 00:44:05,410
And things that cause suffering cannot be a cause of healing or happiness.

00:44:05,410 --> 00:44:13,490
And you cannot experience causes of healing or causes of happiness when you go against virtues.

00:44:13,910 --> 00:44:22,730
Like they have them, like loving kindness. They call it mudita. Compassion, karuna. Right? Truth.

00:44:23,170 --> 00:44:32,450
And they make a distinction between absolute truth and relative, absolute reality and relative. I love that.

00:44:32,450 --> 00:44:36,010
Can I go back to your example of the men that you've worked with? Yes.

00:44:36,010 --> 00:44:45,570
So my position would be that those values were not virtuous, that they've been subjected to... To laws. Their laws, yeah. I mean, to man-made... That's right. I'm talking about...

00:44:45,570 --> 00:44:52,570
Like some people thought, oh, here's the way you get. That's right. Yeah. It's so...

00:44:53,070 --> 00:44:55,870
I've been awakened by virtues.

00:44:57,210 --> 00:45:08,270
I've been sort of unbound by virtues because... Yeah, unbound. Say more. Just because my...

00:45:08,270 --> 00:45:15,830
If you come from a legalistic system or a legalistic mindset, it is very limiting. It's very...

00:45:15,830 --> 00:45:20,350
Like everything has to be like in this box. And so virtues are...

00:45:20,350 --> 00:45:22,270
They are so far beyond a box.

00:45:22,570 --> 00:45:24,630
Oh, I think about that.

00:45:24,630 --> 00:45:30,090
Like even in working in treatment or whatever, people are so like, what's the law, what's the law, what's the law?

00:45:30,130 --> 00:45:38,470
And I go, if you know what is the ethical thing to do, because ethics and virtues for me are the same, similar.

00:45:38,610 --> 00:45:39,510
I'm not going to say the same.

00:45:40,090 --> 00:45:44,150
It's like, I don't care what the lie is, because sometimes if you're really bound to virtue,

00:45:44,410 --> 00:45:47,110
then you'll break the law in the name of virtue. That's right.

00:45:47,170 --> 00:45:48,610
Because you're not walking around.

00:45:49,010 --> 00:45:53,790
People say they value truth, but when afraid, lie.

00:45:54,870 --> 00:45:59,510
And I'm like going, I will tell you what your virtue is by the way you move your feet, not by

00:45:59,510 --> 00:46:01,230
the way you move your mouth.

00:46:02,090 --> 00:46:04,510
As your walk, not your talk.

00:46:04,570 --> 00:46:12,390
Well, because it's easy thing to say that we value love and then live lives based on fear, that

00:46:12,390 --> 00:46:15,410
we believe in truth yet deceive.

00:46:16,610 --> 00:46:22,470
And when we're challenged or whatever, become dishonest.

00:46:22,810 --> 00:46:28,310
And it's just like, that's another thing that when I work with people, it's like I always hear

00:46:28,310 --> 00:46:33,770
people saying, oh, I'm afraid, I'm afraid, I'm afraid, I'm afraid that.

00:46:34,270 --> 00:46:39,830
And I'm like, what if there is a virtue like the way you're describing it, as if there were

00:46:39,830 --> 00:46:46,790
a power that exists as real as electricity, right?

00:46:47,310 --> 00:46:49,610
As real that you could tap into.

00:46:49,630 --> 00:46:55,370
That's what I think is behind this force of human connection is this, it is like electricity.

00:46:55,570 --> 00:46:59,910
Like we're not having a conversation, we're having a connection, aren't we right now? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:47:00,050 --> 00:47:06,490
Like I feel very enriched and deepened and expanded by it. And so do I.

00:47:06,650 --> 00:47:09,270
And so what is that phenomena? What is that?

00:47:09,270 --> 00:47:12,150
And so we're like the conduits of this.

00:47:12,330 --> 00:47:17,370
We're not actually in and of ourselves, we're not the source of it.

00:47:17,370 --> 00:47:20,670
I see in you a very gifted connector.

00:47:21,010 --> 00:47:27,690
Like I see you, I would imagine the people that come to you and have been your clients have

00:47:27,690 --> 00:47:35,490
been so deeply impacted because I think you realize that you have this gift and you have this way.

00:47:36,110 --> 00:47:37,690
And I think you honor that.

00:47:37,690 --> 00:47:47,710
And so one thing I have as an outsider in this world of healing and treatment and therapy, I'm

00:47:47,710 --> 00:47:48,930
not a clinician at all.

00:47:49,110 --> 00:47:50,810
I'm just like, I'm curious.

00:47:51,010 --> 00:47:52,530
I think you picked that up right away.

00:47:53,030 --> 00:48:00,390
So I came into the industry and I would say, well, okay, I'm gonna hire a doctor that has a really great education.

00:48:00,550 --> 00:48:03,390
I'm gonna hire a therapist that has the greatest education.

00:48:03,390 --> 00:48:12,070
I'm gonna select people that are gonna be on the front line that are gonna be techs or support

00:48:12,070 --> 00:48:14,090
staff that have lived experience.

00:48:14,270 --> 00:48:18,370
And all this is gonna come together and they're gonna do really great work.

00:48:19,170 --> 00:48:22,150
And so I tried that.

00:48:22,290 --> 00:48:31,950
And then I realized that absent of this one element, let's call it love, let's call it compassion, let's call it empathy.

00:48:31,950 --> 00:48:37,330
If we don't have that, all of that other stuff is for not.

00:48:37,890 --> 00:48:43,130
And so I would tell people about what I'm observing and I would ask.

00:48:43,330 --> 00:48:53,250
I was curious because I know this is like a force but we needed to have a scientific element

00:48:53,250 --> 00:48:58,010
to this because that's what we have to do if we're gonna be ethical about it, right?

00:48:58,010 --> 00:49:03,370
Well, science and it's, science really is the pursuit of the truth. That's right.

00:49:03,410 --> 00:49:07,050
What is it to be a human being, really? That's right. It's a lens.

00:49:07,750 --> 00:49:15,850
It's very, for me, I'm not sure why people pull religion, not only religion, but spirituality

00:49:15,850 --> 00:49:22,770
and science as if they were, I know they have different modes of expressing truth, but they're both seeking truth.

00:49:23,530 --> 00:49:27,710
Truth, and I think that we're asking because we're, you know, human centered.

00:49:28,710 --> 00:49:30,670
What does it mean to be a human being?

00:49:31,010 --> 00:49:34,090
What is a human being? Right, what? That's right.

00:49:34,130 --> 00:49:45,710
Like, you know, we wanna start big and like when I hear you, you're like, a human being? What is it? Is about connection. That's right.

00:49:45,850 --> 00:49:53,850
A human being, there's something about the virtues that help with this thing called connection, right? Is that what I'm?

00:49:53,850 --> 00:49:55,710
Yeah, and then some, right?

00:49:55,710 --> 00:50:05,990
And then we, and then, cause we live in the culture and the time that we put it in that, we measure, we collect evidence. That's right. Right? That's right.

00:50:06,010 --> 00:50:08,070
And we can have all that, but without love.

00:50:08,670 --> 00:50:15,570
Here's the way it says, and again, I'm not particularly a Christian, but there is a verse in

00:50:15,570 --> 00:50:18,970
the big book of Christianity, right? Yeah.

00:50:19,150 --> 00:50:24,050
It says, you can have it all, but if you have love, it's like the sound of. A gong.

00:50:24,790 --> 00:50:26,770
Yeah, it's like, it's nothing. It's nothing.

00:50:27,250 --> 00:50:31,070
If you don't have love, it is nothing. It is nothing.

00:50:31,430 --> 00:50:37,890
And so that's what I observed as a lay person, as an outsider, that this thing was so important

00:50:37,890 --> 00:50:39,750
and it was being sort of marginalized.

00:50:40,070 --> 00:50:47,830
So I worked with a neuroscientist to come up with a way to, actually, let's research this.

00:50:48,310 --> 00:50:57,910
Who are these people that are able to connect and bring about transformation, move people from pathology to purpose? Who are they?

00:50:58,290 --> 00:51:00,390
You worked with a scientist to ask this question?

00:51:00,410 --> 00:51:01,910
We went through this whole project.

00:51:02,330 --> 00:51:07,550
Can I just say this? Damn. We needed the answer. We needed the answer.

00:51:07,650 --> 00:51:13,250
And as we looked at the research, there was all these peer-reviewed publications that talked

00:51:13,250 --> 00:51:18,130
about Bedside Manor, Therapeutic Alliance, Working Alliance.

00:51:18,130 --> 00:51:28,310
And so we went through 600-something publications and we came up with 24 quantifiable empirical

00:51:28,310 --> 00:51:35,390
personality traits that were the most predictive of a person's ability to facilitate transformation.

00:51:35,570 --> 00:51:40,910
Okay, I'm having a moment of being blown. Like, wow. I'm so interested.

00:51:41,470 --> 00:51:47,610
After that process, because you know, I was so curious and I was so tired of telling people

00:51:48,550 --> 00:51:55,830
okay, so people would ask, what about your approach to treatment makes a difference?

00:51:55,870 --> 00:51:57,850
And I would say, well, we just try to care more.

00:51:58,110 --> 00:52:00,870
We try to be more caring, more compassionate.

00:52:01,590 --> 00:52:03,990
And you know what would happen? People's eyes would roll.

00:52:04,150 --> 00:52:08,430
Well, that's what everybody says. And it is. True enough. It is.

00:52:08,550 --> 00:52:14,030
And so I was like, that little voice said inside, aren't you tired of that?

00:52:15,510 --> 00:52:19,010
And I said, yes, little voice. Yes.

00:52:19,150 --> 00:52:20,630
Okay, so what is science?

00:52:20,890 --> 00:52:25,990
And I'm like, science is, you know, is like the language.

00:52:26,010 --> 00:52:28,030
Which is, yes, the language of truth.

00:52:28,030 --> 00:52:30,630
Oh yeah, the language of truth.

00:52:30,630 --> 00:52:38,050
So taking that approach, we wanted to take a scientific approach to actually putting a framework

00:52:38,050 --> 00:52:44,310
around this ability because it actually is the main driver of positive outcomes, as you know,

00:52:44,370 --> 00:52:45,410
and I see it in you.

00:52:45,410 --> 00:52:52,650
What do you think about taking that kind of scientific approach? It's not nothing. There's no silver bullet.

00:52:52,650 --> 00:52:58,970
There's no like, you know, there's no like magic wand, but actually being able to quantify it,

00:52:58,970 --> 00:53:04,050
as you saw coming through here, you were like, oh, you're measuring things. And it's transparent.

00:53:04,050 --> 00:53:07,170
So we're, that's like, that's the main thing we're measuring.

00:53:07,170 --> 00:53:09,950
It wasn't on the board, but there's a lot to this.

00:53:09,950 --> 00:53:15,130
Yeah, like I asked you about it, you actually, I pointed it out without knowing what I was pointing out, I was asking.

00:53:15,610 --> 00:53:21,990
Well, let me, you know, I, um, because I see it in you.

00:53:21,990 --> 00:53:24,410
I actually love, I love that.

00:53:24,590 --> 00:53:27,070
Here's what I don't love. Yeah.

00:53:27,070 --> 00:53:32,550
You know, like when you go to conferences and people are throwing out the word, the phrase evidence-based

00:53:32,550 --> 00:53:37,050
all over the place as if it were some sort of calling card. Yes.

00:53:37,050 --> 00:53:42,850
And sometimes people just, I think that sometimes when people use words or phrases all the time,

00:53:43,050 --> 00:53:45,290
it ceases to have meaning. That's right.

00:53:45,290 --> 00:53:55,190
But what I hear you saying is that we took the time to genuinely research what are the qualities. That's right.

00:53:55,190 --> 00:54:01,310
In people that help people heal, something like that. Yes, yes.

00:54:01,310 --> 00:54:10,710
And through, through trials, because that's what that is. Yes. That's interesting.

00:54:10,710 --> 00:54:15,330
And people had to love people to begin with. That's exactly right.

00:54:15,330 --> 00:54:18,270
And I was tired of seeing this thing being marginalized too.

00:54:18,270 --> 00:54:23,230
People didn't really, like the modality was more important than the way of being.

00:54:23,230 --> 00:54:24,130
Yeah, that's just, you know what that is? That's BS.

00:54:24,230 --> 00:54:30,150
You know what I heard Bessel van der Kolk say once, my favorite thing, I stole it as if it were mine.

00:54:30,150 --> 00:54:44,510
You know, when you, oh, I'm a, let's see, I do ACT, BET, CBT, M-O-U-S-T.He said, when you say

00:54:44,510 --> 00:55:02,170
I'm a, I'm a IFS therapist, I'm a CBT therapist, that's like saying you're a And when people

00:55:02,170 --> 00:55:08,470
don't understand what the word love means, they go, well, love doesn't heal everything.

00:55:08,470 --> 00:55:09,630
And I'm like, it does.

00:55:09,630 --> 00:55:13,550
You are blowing me away right now.

00:55:13,550 --> 00:55:15,010
I know it heals everything.

00:55:15,010 --> 00:55:24,230
But when love is, when fear is masqueraded as love, when empathic distress is masqueraded as

00:55:24,230 --> 00:55:26,310
love, that is not love.

00:55:26,310 --> 00:55:38,830
Just like if you light up this building with kerosene instead of electricity, is that right? Electricity? Yep, that's right.

00:55:38,850 --> 00:55:43,010
Why don't, how come we don't use kerosene? It's dangerous.

00:55:43,010 --> 00:55:46,250
Yeah, it's more combustible, right? Yeah.

00:55:46,250 --> 00:55:56,590
It's like you're tapping into a actual force that exists, but if you don't know it exists, you're like, you're right. Fear doesn't heal things.

00:55:56,590 --> 00:56:03,050
Fear, you act in fear. It creates fearful results. That, right.

00:56:03,050 --> 00:56:05,890
And I love the anacronym false evidence appearing real.

00:56:05,910 --> 00:56:08,250
I think that's such a great thing, right?

00:56:08,250 --> 00:56:10,890
Because you're making decisions with false evidence.

00:56:11,590 --> 00:56:16,970
Love is the ability to see clearly and respond accurately to what is.

00:56:16,970 --> 00:56:29,490
It means that you have to be able to play all the notes on the keyboard of life. Love isn't nice. Love is powerful, right?

00:56:29,630 --> 00:56:37,870
Like if my daughter is running across the road when she's five years old, if I go, Rose, that is not loving. No.

00:56:38,010 --> 00:56:45,130
But if I go, Rose, because I have to play that note. That's right. Right? That's loving.

00:56:45,130 --> 00:56:53,550
It is not loving to allow someone to abuse you, you know, oh, well, they didn't because, because

00:56:53,550 --> 00:57:01,290
what you're saying, it is okay with you for you to experience yourself in your lowest possibility in my presence.

00:57:02,050 --> 00:57:04,030
And I expect nothing else from you.

00:57:04,870 --> 00:57:06,650
And so it's okay with me.

00:57:07,730 --> 00:57:10,170
And I'm going to do a pass on that.

00:57:10,170 --> 00:57:14,270
And I'm not going to hold you and that is not love.

00:57:14,610 --> 00:57:16,830
Love says, I will not accept.

00:57:18,450 --> 00:57:20,610
I will not accept you in this.

00:57:20,810 --> 00:57:28,110
And I will not tolerate because love doesn't do that. Love sees what is.

00:57:29,270 --> 00:57:43,730
People mistake love for this, this saccharine sugar, right? It's not nice. No. Love is powerful. It can be confrontational. Yeah.

00:57:43,730 --> 00:57:51,230
Love responds to what is because you have clarity and you're not, your vision isn't obscured by anxiety.

00:57:51,230 --> 00:57:56,030
It's like if you had a camera and you're just always moving the camera and taking photos and

00:57:56,030 --> 00:58:02,970
thinking that that's what life is and then responding to a blurry image. Love is clear, right?

00:58:03,750 --> 00:58:09,810
Every single wisdom teacher that has ever come has told us this is true, but we don't believe it.

00:58:09,830 --> 00:58:12,650
And I know we don't believe it when we don't act on it.

00:58:12,970 --> 00:58:17,590
And I have to tell you, it was my daughter that taught me this. Wow.

00:58:18,210 --> 00:58:22,010
And not because she came to give me advice. Advice isn't that loving.

00:58:23,570 --> 00:58:33,530
Because she was dying of addiction and I was saying, I love you and I'm looking for you and

00:58:33,530 --> 00:58:36,310
I'm making you responsible for my happiness.

00:58:36,570 --> 00:58:41,590
I'm quitting my job and I'm putting a burden on you and calling it love.

00:58:41,590 --> 00:58:44,950
And not only do you have your problem, now you have my problem.

00:58:45,290 --> 00:58:49,350
And then I go, see, if love could heal, you would be healed.

00:58:51,030 --> 00:58:53,050
No, that was me acting fearfully.

00:58:54,610 --> 00:59:03,930
And so I was called to go, a kid once told me, I was looking for Rose and the kid said, she doesn't want your help.

00:59:04,050 --> 00:59:07,410
It never occurred to me, ever.

00:59:08,050 --> 00:59:10,370
And I went home and I looked at the mirror.

00:59:10,610 --> 00:59:15,550
I looked at Rose's picture and I thought she might die and she might not.

00:59:17,030 --> 00:59:19,090
And if she dies, I'm still going to have to live.

00:59:19,670 --> 00:59:25,350
And if she doesn't, if I'm a basket case calling it helping, I have nothing to offer.

00:59:26,150 --> 00:59:32,530
So the solution is the same, that I have to really find what love is in this situation even now.

00:59:32,690 --> 00:59:33,410
That's what I call it.

00:59:33,410 --> 00:59:41,230
How do I love me and she even now, even now and even now, so that I become a safe place for

00:59:41,230 --> 00:59:47,410
her to be when she comes, if she comes and says I'm in trouble, so that I don't fall apart underneath

00:59:47,410 --> 00:59:52,710
the weight because love bears all things. Yes, it does. How is Rose now?

00:59:53,450 --> 00:59:57,830
You know, Rose is living her life over in Austin, Texas at 41 years old.

00:59:57,830 --> 01:00:07,130
And she has, I'm going to tell you something, I was at Onsite doing a lecture and my daughter

01:00:08,750 --> 01:00:17,610
helped put a man in prison who was abusing at a treatment center called CRLA, his name was Christopher Batham.

01:00:17,810 --> 01:00:23,830
My daughter worked for five years with another person and other people to hold them accountable.

01:00:25,090 --> 01:00:33,570
And he finally, cause he did $175 million insurance fraud plus was assaulting women and often

01:00:33,570 --> 01:00:40,730
women who are addicts are easily preyed upon because nobody believes them and thinks, well,

01:00:40,750 --> 01:00:46,050
that's what they get or they are not believed, but Rose did believe them.

01:00:46,930 --> 01:00:52,530
And then one day I'm at Onsite in the middle of nowhere, Tennessee, and a woman who was hearing

01:00:52,530 --> 01:01:05,650
my story said, oh, you're Kathleen, you're Rose's mother. She saved my life. Wow. What a gift. Because she believed me. What a gift. Because she believed me.

01:01:06,350 --> 01:01:12,490
And I think to hear that, that was love, Rose being obsessed.

01:01:13,070 --> 01:01:16,130
Like it looked like obsession, right?

01:01:16,130 --> 01:01:21,870
And sometimes I would think, God, I wish you, you know, can you stop it already?

01:01:21,870 --> 01:01:28,050
But when I, and I've had to apologize to her because that was love to say, you know, sometimes

01:01:28,050 --> 01:01:34,070
I wasn't quite sure what your mission was and I wasn't always supportive in the way that I wish I was.

01:01:34,290 --> 01:01:36,290
And I'm so proud of you. She drew a line.

01:01:36,510 --> 01:01:44,890
She came to a place where she just drew a line in the sand and she said, no more. She said no more. This stops here. This stops here. Yeah.

01:01:44,890 --> 01:01:48,010
And that's, when you say how is Rose, that's how Rose is.

01:01:48,010 --> 01:01:53,770
What a wonderful, wonderful way to come to an end to this conversation.

01:01:54,010 --> 01:01:56,690
We could go on and on and on.

01:01:57,610 --> 01:01:59,130
And I must have you back.

01:01:59,210 --> 01:02:01,910
I hope you would give me the honor and the privilege of having you back.

01:02:02,010 --> 01:02:04,890
There's so much more that I know we can talk about.

01:02:05,470 --> 01:02:08,670
And I want to thank you for spending this time with me.

01:02:08,710 --> 01:02:13,030
It's been so rewarding, so fulfilling, so enriching.

01:02:13,450 --> 01:02:15,990
Do I get to say that back? Yeah, absolutely.

01:02:15,990 --> 01:02:19,550
I was like, thank you for being a thinker.

01:02:19,970 --> 01:02:21,670
Thank you for exploring questions.

01:02:22,110 --> 01:02:25,590
Thank you for not knowing everything and for knowing a lot.

01:02:26,330 --> 01:02:28,490
You know, I just think, I feel enriched.

01:02:29,330 --> 01:02:37,950
I didn't know I was going to have such a great time. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Come back again. Thank you. Was that good?

01:02:39,710 --> 01:02:42,730
Thank you for tuning into the Altered Life Podcast.

01:02:43,130 --> 01:02:49,130
We hope today's episode left you inspired, informed, and ready to take on new challenges.

01:02:49,830 --> 01:02:55,190
If you enjoyed this conversation, don't forget to subscribe, leave us a review, and share it

01:02:55,190 --> 01:02:57,930
with someone who might benefit from today's insights.

01:02:58,450 --> 01:03:02,010
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01:03:02,370 --> 01:03:10,730
Or visit alteredlifepodcast.com to join our community and stay updated on all things human connection.

01:03:11,060 --> 01:03:14,070
Until next time, remember, stay connected.

01:03:14,490 --> 01:03:17,550
The power of human connection is unlimited.

01:03:18,130 --> 01:03:20,190
Thanks for listening, and we'll see you soon.